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Template talk:Route
Questions Scarbrow having trouble listing a destination that isn't a specific page. Specifically the tents in the battlegrounds which happens to be a section of that page. Could be that I'm overlooking something simple, but if not I did some testing which may better explain. Here's the testing I was doing. If I'm not overlooking something hopefully it's a simple fix. Thinking a redirect to that section may work or adding an Anchor function as with the Tablerow4/NPC template? And a few questions in general regarding it's use. I'm guessing on for those destinations that have specific pages that just typing the page name will work? Just wondering about since sometimes that doesn't work when searching articles. And where to place the template. Using it in the questbox (location) doesn't seem a good fit imo so I'm thinking on the full page. Could be used in the General Information or Walkthrough sections (if used at the beginning), but I'm thinking maybe another section title something along the lines of Route/Location. Probably after the Prerequisite section and before the map or walkthrough if no map is present. Tried putting it after the spoiler as with the Map directions but it didn't look right to me. But that could be because it's new. Re: the Map Directions. Seems it's fell out of use. So was wondering if there's any time it would be used instead of or in addition to the Route template/directions. I know it's placement can be bothersome since it can get large and can't be floated - just wondering. Also what about the old pages that have them in use already. Should we replace them with route directions or just add the route directions as an addition. Thanks --Old School 23:12, March 14, 2012 (UTC)--Old School 23:12, March 14, 2012 (UTC) : I've removed the auto-linking of destination. Better to be more flexible, even if that means you have to manually add the brackets to link the destination. : About the brackets question, though I'm answering in the forum later, I'll throw a quick template . : Scarbrowtalk 08:28, March 15, 2012 (UTC) Usage About usage, I meant to be a replacement for , which I never really liked. It could be used on any location page to show where it is on a quick glance. However, MapDirections already does that, and does a reasonable good work on it, provided there's a good description of the location. I think questboxes are best served with a simple link to the destination (location page), and then you'll find Route on the location page itself. About the floating, it seems that now we can do it. Maybe I should apply it to MapDirections. Anyway, I think we need a standard way to present Locations and Explorable Locations. A standard layout. I'm going to think it for a while, feel free to start with the suggestions Scarbrowtalk 08:52, March 15, 2012 (UTC) : Let's see... How about this? :* A page can be: An item page, a quest page, a location page, an explorable location page or a general-purpose page (for everything else), but not two of these a the same time. That is, either exactly one set of guidelines applies, or none at all (general-purpose pages). :* A location page does not need to be a Travel location, but if it is, then it must be marked as such. Maybe with MapDirections? :* A location page which leads to an Explorable location must have separate pages for the Travel Location and the Explorable location. That should hold true even if the Explorable Location itself is the travel destination (case in point, Bentlimb Wood). For these cases, I propose either a "Bentlimb Wood (explorable)" or a subpage "Bentlimb Wood/Explorable" for the explorable scenario. :* If a quest includes an explorable location (such as with Explore Thorn Isle and Quest:The Haunted Tower of Thorn Isle) or an explorable location has a quest (or mini-quest) inside one of its locations (like the The Jadefang Lair on Old North Wood), or even for explorable/replayable locations which include quests or parts of them (case in point, Tarn), special rules should apply (to expand later). This stems from the too-broad and too loose definition of "Quest". We need a more strict definition. : Will continue... later. Maybe soon. Scarbrowtalk 12:25, March 21, 2012 (UTC) : I think we should redefine "Quest" in terms of gameplay as "a sequence of player actions with an overarching narrative structure", that is, with a beginning and an end. That would somehow exclude replayables with the reasoning than what can be repeated cannot be said to have a beginning and an end. But events happening inside replayables, like events happening while traveling, or while exploring, could be a quest even if they're split among several playing sessions/repeated actions. So Axepath Cemetery wouldn't be a quest, but obtaining the Creyn Blade would be. How do you like it? Scarbrowtalk 19:45, March 22, 2012 (UTC) :: I could get behind that reasoning. We could make things like obtaining/completing the bowl of blood into a "quest", which makes sense and I think would be extremely helpful to players looking at the wiki for content that they haven't stumbled across in-game (like the *bleep*ing Ice Shield, which you pretty much have to know about already in order to be able to find). Psychoadept 16:27, March 23, 2012 (UTC) ---- (Restart indent and separating for long extension of previous suggestion) Going further: * Adding a new type: replayable page (includes Multiplayers). Then the first rule should read: "A page can be: An item page, a quest page, a location page, an explorable location page, a replayable (including multiplayers) page or a general-purpose page (for everything else), but not two of these at the same time." Item pages and general-purpose pages won't be affected by anything else to be said on this section, so we can safely ignore them. * If we have a within a page of the same , the matter is always solved by creating another separate page. Then the two pages must be linked to one another. ** "A Tangled Bog" on the Jagged Hills, an explorable within another, should be split ** Almost all travel locations, which are a part of a larger region, already have separate linked pages. ** I don't think we have any "quest within a quest" as such. Although things like Quest:The Ghost Ship that happen at two places may qualify, it's simpler to write it all into a single quest page (for the starting location) and then link to the quest page in all the related locations other than the starting one. ** I don't think we have any replayable within a replayable, as such. Nothing on , at least. * Assuming the previous point, we have the following 12 combinations of different types of pages: ** quest within a replayable: To do. Could use the same treatment as Quest within an Explorable ** quest within a location: Already done (affects all quests). Separate Quest page with a Questbox inside onlyinclude tags, Location page then transcludes Quest page. Location page is transcluded on Quest List to build the location-based Quest index. ** Quest within an explorable location: Just done. The section of the Explorable page where the quest happens is put on a QuestWithinExplorable template. Then the Quest page transcludes the Explorable page as appropriate. ** replayable within a quest: I think that, by definition, this shouldn't happen. ** replayable within a location: Separate Replayable page, replayable box (to do), replayable page is transcluded on the Location. ** replayable within an explorable location: Separate Replayable page, linked from the explorable location. To transclude the Replayable, one should do it at the associated Location page, since the Replayable Location could have specific code to be transcluded on Quest pages (and thus it shouldn't be transcluded on any other page, as a precaution). ** location within a replayable: By definition, this shouldn't happen. However, should it happen, it can be treated the general way, creating a new Location page and putting the data in that page. Linking that new location page with the Location page that is parent to the replayable would be a good idea. ** location within an explorable location: Same as location within a Replayable. ** location within a quest: There are many locations that cannot be reached outside of quests. The correct montage would be (as shown on Harkenryn) to create a page with the name of the location, and make it into a redirect to a more general Location page (ideally, the closest Travel Node). Then linking the quest and the location on the Travel node. ** explorable location within a replayable: Currently there is nothing like this in the game, and I fail to imagine how would it be. ** explorable location within a quest: If it's just unlocked during a quest, then it's not within the quest, so it must have their own page, associated with a location page. If it's completely contained within a quest (like A Blizzard in the Hills) it should be described within the Quest page. This is an exception to the general rule about separation of pages. ** explorable location within a location: The default situation. All explorable locations should have their own page, linked to and from a parent location. * Since the explorable location will have an , and it would be good to be able to transclude the ExplorableBox in Location pages, the ExplorableBox should be placed in a subpage of the Explorable Location. Like Jagged Hills/Box. Then the subpage (/Box) is transcluded in both the Explorable page and the Location page linked to the Explorable page. The same could be done for ReplayableBox, once it's done. * Replayable/Multiplayer scenarios still need their own style of box. Rant complete. If I manage to understand myself, I'll try to clarify. Later. Scarbrowtalk 13:46, March 26, 2012 (UTC) : I follow your reasoning. Great analysis and thanks for all the work on the infrastructure. Psychoadept 18:02, March 26, 2012 (UTC) Usage Summary (To be added at some point to the Editors Guide) A content (that is, excluding help pages, templates and other parts of wiki maintenance) page of this wiki can be of one (and only one) of the following types: * General purpose page: For anything that doesn't fit any other type * Item page * Quest page * Location page * Explorable Location page * Replayable/Multiplayer page Since only the last four are somewhat of a problem currently, I'll only talk about them. Definitions * Item page: Describes a single item in full detail. * Location: Either a travel node, or a place you visit during your adventures. Only the travel nodes should have their own Location page. * Explorable Location: Definition on Explorable Areas. All of them must have their own separate page. * Quest: A sequence of player actions with an overarching narrative structure, that is, with a beginning and an end. Explicitly excludes purely mechanical actions, like spending XP (training) to improve your skills, buying/selling at shops, trading items at certain NPCs. All of them must have their own separate page. * Replayable/Multiplayer: Same as a quest, but without a clear beginning and end (can be repeated indefinitely, and most do reset to the initial state on "ending"). Inclusion/Transclusion * Location: Must transclude any child Quests directly. Must transclude the /Box of any child Explorable/Replayable. Should use onlyinclude around any section with these transclusions, so Quest List can directly transclude all Location pages. * Explorable Location: Can only be transcluded on Quest pages, and only through the use of QuestWithinExplorable. They should use onlyinclude only on the Quest segments. They will transclude its own /Box ( ). * Quest: They have their own boxes ( ) enclosed between onlyinclude tags. The box must be the only part that is transcluded on other pages. Should be transcluded on its parent Location page. If parts of it happen on Explorable Locations and/or Replayables, it must transclude their pages, where the content is. * Replayable/Multiplayer: Very similar to Explorable Location. * Item: Has an between onlyinclude tags, which must be the only part that is transcluded on other pages. Relationships ;General guidelines * All occurrences of "replayable" must be understood to mean "replayable/multiplayer" * All mentions of "links" between two pages must be implemented as two links: one from the parent to the child and another one from the child to the parent. If the child page has a specific Box (Questbox, ExplorableBox, ReplayableBox), transclude the box on parent. The box should have links to both parent and child. ;Exceptions to the rules * Keep in mind the game is organized around Game Sections, not Quests or Replayables. Some parts of a (quest, location, explorable location, replayable) can be activated separately from others. E.g. is a prerequisite for the Phantom Assassin's encounters to activate on Explore the realms at random, and those encounters cannot be had once the quest is finished, thus that part of the explorable is, in fact, within the quest, even if the whole Explorable Location is not. And since the Explorable Location is not within the quest, this case should be treated as "Quest within Explorable Location" (see table). ** The same case happens with Random encounters (or locations) within Replayables that are only accessible after some other encounters but cease to be available after others (often themselves, such is the case of the one-time encounters). Case in point, Grommyd the woodsman in Bentlimb Wood. * For some cases, even finer distinctions than those made in this table might be needed, so in practice they must be treated on a case-by-case basis. ---- How do you see it? I think I haven't left any loophole, but surely there are some. And the table is not very legible either. But it's as good as I'm able to make it at the moment. This is the biggest wiki proposal since the old times when Havoc, K!Zero and myself dreamed up the Item page/Itembox/Quest page/Questbox system. Scarbrowtalk 14:46, March 29, 2012 (UTC) : Updated a few details, and separated to its own section for ease of linking Scarbrowtalk 10:03, March 30, 2012 (UTC) Further usage discussion I think adding the route in the body of the quest page is the way to go. If so adding a Route/Location section parameter in the quest page field should follow - if that makes sense. And again if presenting Route in that fashion is what is ultimately decided. I'm thinking along these lines; ---- Location/Route The sprawling maze of tents at Zumryn's Battlegrounds ---- The main question to me is where to put them. I've added them to the first two Dire Saga quests - one directly before the Walkthrough section and one directly after the General Info section since I'm also adding the saga parameters in there. After moving them around that's the only two places I felt they fit and flowed good and I personally like it after the General Information section which is before any of the other stuff. I realized SB and others may not be current on the Dire so I probably should've used "older" examples so they could be looked at without risks of spoilers. I put them elsewhere in the page (as well as not in the articles' "body") and to me they only flow good in the body of the page and those two places. But that could just be me. While this isn't the page I'm already here so, re: the Saga parameters I don't see a need for any tweaks or changes on the Saga parameters - nicely done Scarbrow. One thing needs to be mentioned. The Dire stuff and it's branched mechanics necessitates a bit of editing which isn't a problem at all which I've done (and doing). Such as when you come to certain branches the "Next" quest can be "This" OR "That one" so I'll list the possibilities with a notation to check the full article/page. Just wanted to mention that so other folks can take a peek and offer feedback. --Old School 17:03, March 19, 2012 (UTC) : I think you've hit the nail right on the head with this, Old School. After General Information is the best place, I think. I'm going to add it to the preloaded Quest template Scarbrowtalk 16:00, March 20, 2012 (UTC)